For Preservation's Sake


Litsey, Alan
 

I respectfully request we refrain from the offensive political posts. And the objectification of those who may hold values that differ from ours.  

 

Alan Litsey

 

From: main@OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io <main@OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io> on behalf of Richard Davenport <klingon1@...>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 10:18 AM
To: main@OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io <main@OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [OldTimeRadioResearchers] For Preservation's Sake

The banned cartoons were labeled as such because of the content.  At the time of WW2 bashing the enemy in this case the Axis was de Rieger.  All the PC crap was not even a twinkle in someone's brain yet.  It had anti-Japanese, German, and black hootenanny style depictions.   If you want an an example, check out Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips.  Wartime anti Japanese cartoon.  There is also this one, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiLlZqvlpfwAhWuHzQIHaojDQ8QFjAAegQIBRAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUacUR7bPnMM&usg=AOvVaw0scJjyvziGsRXORF903cc9

 

black depiction.   Comedy back in the day but now with the BLM mess going on, would be pretty politically charged, etc. etc.

 

Rick

Labor ipse voluptas

 

 

On Saturday, April 24, 2021, 7:18:01 AM CDT, Allan Foster via groups.io <allanpqz@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks Evan, you are exactly right--my post probably offended many also. I guess I illustrated my own point, political posts have no place in this friendly and accepting place. I humbly apologize.

 

Allan

 

On Friday, April 23, 2021, 10:19:14 PM CDT, Allan Foster via groups.io <allanpqz@...> wrote:

 

 

Jackie, just because most of us in this group are older, don’t assume we all are white republicans.  Please try to avoid getting into politics.

 

Allan


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Friday, April 23, 2021, 5:57 PM, jackies@... via groups.io <jackies@...> wrote:

I love the ones the Woke crowd has had banned.  All the old Cartoons
Betty Book, Disney cartoons Tom & Jerry all those old cartoons.  You
can't even buy them anywhere anymore.  No store want's to be call
bigoted but they and the woke crowd are the one's being bigoted.  So sad
they are refusing their children the joy of Cartoons because that was
why they were created to give joy to children.

Sincerely
Jackie Schlageter


On 2021-04-23 16:33, Richard Davenport wrote:
> Jackie,
> I have tons from all eras as well.  I especially like the ones that
> are banned.  Whatever....
>
> Name your poison
>
> Rick
>
> Also if you are on the dc hubs I am wraith there and all my stuff is
> up for grabs
>
> Rick
>> On Apr 23, 2021, at 2:07 PM, Philip Atchley <ko6bb1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
Hi Jackie,
>>
>> I have over 4,300 cartoons (449GB), old and newer, movie and TV
>> available for direct download on any of the 4 hubs I am logged into,
>> usually 24/7.  The (private) hubs I use are Oldtymeradioman, OTR Hub,
>> PhilsPlace, and DooDrop Inn.  All you need is to have the DC++ (or
>> airDC etc) software on your computer and of course hub membership to
>> whichever hubs you're interested in.
>>
>> <>< 73 From "The Beaconeer's Lair" <><
>> Specializing in DXing NDBs (Longwave Beacons)
>> Phil, KO6BB,  http://www.qsl.net/ko6bb/
>> KO6BB/B beacon, ~23W on 28.290 MHz, Ringo Vertical
>>
>> HF/LF RADIOS:
>> YAESU:    FTDX-101MP Xceiver, Dual SDR Receivers (~2020)
>> YAESU:    FTDX-3000 Xceiver, DSP IF, 300Hz Roofing filter (~2019).
>> Beacon:  Realistic HTX-100 on 28.290MHz (CW Beacon)
>> Uniden:  SDS-200 Scanner, 25-1300MHz (2020)
>> Eton:    Elite 750 (2), AKA Grundig Satelite 750 (2020)
>> HOMEBREW: 7 Tube+Rect 1v3 Regen RX for LF (built 2015)
>> SDRS:    Perseus 10KHz-40MHz (2020)
>>          Softrock Ensemble II LF Receiver (kit, 2017)
>>          Softrock Ensemble II HF Receiver (Kit, 2019)
>>        ACC: MFJ-993B  Auto Antenna Matcher.
>>    HOMEBREW  LF-MF Pre-Amp, 8Hz Audio Filter.
>>    HOMEBREW  4 Port Antenna Multicoupler, Feeds 4 RX's.
>>
>> ANTENNAS:      88 foot Long Ladder-line fed dipole, ~35 feet AGL for
>> MW/HF.
>>              Top Loaded Tee (Dipole fed as single element) ~35 Feet
>> AGL.
>>              Comet CHA-250B HF Vertical at ~24 Feet AGL For HF.
>>              Cushcraft AR-10 Ringo Vertical, ~20 feet AGL for 10M.
>>              Ratzlaff Active whip, 5 Foot Long, ~16 Feet AGL For
>> LF/MW/HF.
>>              Wellbrook ALA1530LN Loop For LF/MW/HF at ~17 Feet AGL
>>              Diamond Discone ~35 feet AGL for Scanner.
>> Merced, Central California, 37, 18, 37N  120, 30, 6W CM97rh
>>
>>> On 4/23/2021 5:59 PM, jackies@... via groups.io wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any of the old cartoons they can share?  My daughter
>>> loves those and she ordered and paid for some to watch on one of the
>>> sites you can get on the new TV's and they canceled the order because
>>> they were too white is the only thing I can think of now. I mean our
>>> country is going to Heck in a hat and a handbag as my mom used to say
>>> only she didn't use the word Heck.  They don't want people to watch
>>> anything that is really entertaining and not full of the S word.  I
>>> saw it coming and started collecting OTR in the 90's.  Cost me a
>>> pretty penny but at least I had things that were suitable for my
>>> children who were a lot younger then.
>>>
>>> Love
>>> Jackie
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>





Wild West Designs
 

I wish everyone accepted history warts and all.  That's what concerns me and I think that's what concern's Jackie.  And this group is very much about history, warts and all (a world impacting problematic event is right smack dab in the middle of this era).  I don't much like the comedy from OTR, that doesn't mean that I want the comedy stripped out from preservation.  I don't like commercials in shows that I'm listening to.  That doesn't mean that I want commercials stripped out for preservation (even though I'm really not a fan of Chesterfields given the type of product that it is).

My concern is those that don't like those things and want them stripped out, because they don't like them and thus everyone else shouldn't like them either.  Which to me is the antithesis of what the group is all about, which is about preservation, regardless if you like it or not.  That nuance/context is being lost.

This group is a very good group (I have been with it thru several iterations (as far as means of communication)). That contacting off list stuff, I don't agree with that at all.  That's not what I'm about.   People on the other hand may have different ideas of me, especially after this thread (which is why I debated posting it).  I did it, because I truly love this hobby (as I think most do, it is something that has brought us together) and I don't want it to fall victim like other subcultures that I have been apart of as well, depending on how you look at it, even longer then I have been involved in OTR.  For instance, I didn't grew up during the era, when I was 6, Louis L'Amour started putting out audio dramas (so it really depends if you think of OTR as more of audio drama or strictly drama within the certain timeframe in America) of his short stories and that's literally what I grew up with (the last regularly released one was the spring of my senior year).  When I was 10 is when I started listening to NAoSH, Dragnet, TTR.  Got involved seriously in the mid to late 90s via IRC (some on here remember me from that). 

But we all know what they say about the best of intentions....

---
Evan


On 2021-04-24 09:25 AM, Tom Shamray via groups.io wrote:

 
 
 
Keeping politics out is easy. History is history warts and all, and I accept that. Other people do not and that is their right as well. I may not agree, but like I said that is their right and I keep moving forward.
 
 
 
This group may not be for me.


_._,_._,_


Gordon Johansen
 

I must say that this sort of respectful dialogue is wonderful to hear. It is related to the groups activities in my opinion because if we don't preserve the bad as well as the good shows, we are losing the ability to look back and see how far we have come as a society. Preserving history does not mean glorifying it. Even as a Canadian, I am well aware that George Washington owned slaves but I don't think you in the US are going to write him out of your history. WW II propaganda films, radio shows, cartoons, etc. are just that, and should be viewed through an objective lens as a historical fact. They are what was going on during that period and show the prevailing viewpoint for future generations of scholars. On the other hand, using these shows to train a new generation of believers in bigotry is not acceptable in my opinion. Finding the middle ground is tough and I'm happy that this group does such a good job of keeping politics out of it. We are here because we love these shows and want to preserve them.

Gord

Wild West Designs wrote on 4/24/21 9:28 AM:

I wish everyone accepted history warts and all.  That's what concerns me and I think that's what concern's Jackie.  And this group is very much about history, warts and all (a world impacting problematic event is right smack dab in the middle of this era).  I don't much like the comedy from OTR, that doesn't mean that I want the comedy stripped out from preservation.  I don't like commercials in shows that I'm listening to.  That doesn't mean that I want commercials stripped out for preservation (even though I'm really not a fan of Chesterfields given the type of product that it is).

My concern is those that don't like those things and want them stripped out, because they don't like them and thus everyone else shouldn't like them either.  Which to me is the antithesis of what the group is all about, which is about preservation, regardless if you like it or not.  That nuance/context is being lost.

This group is a very good group (I have been with it thru several iterations (as far as means of communication)). That contacting off list stuff, I don't agree with that at all.  That's not what I'm about.   People on the other hand may have different ideas of me, especially after this thread (which is why I debated posting it).  I did it, because I truly love this hobby (as I think most do, it is something that has brought us together) and I don't want it to fall victim like other subcultures that I have been apart of as well, depending on how you look at it, even longer then I have been involved in OTR.  For instance, I didn't grew up during the era, when I was 6, Louis L'Amour started putting out audio dramas (so it really depends if you think of OTR as more of audio drama or strictly drama within the certain timeframe in America) of his short stories and that's literally what I grew up with (the last regularly released one was the spring of my senior year).  When I was 10 is when I started listening to NAoSH, Dragnet, TTR.  Got involved seriously in the mid to late 90s via IRC (some on here remember me from that). 

But we all know what they say about the best of intentions....

---
Evan


Wild West Designs
 

I agree with this and I don't think that's what preservation is all about.  It's about learning.  For instance, my wife doesn't much care for the hierarchy ranking that is done within Father Knows Best(neither does my mom and while they aren't the current 3rd wave, mom especially had some issues due to that hierarchy and the job force). But that doesn't mean that she want's Father Knows Best to be out of circulation.  She just doesn't indulge in listening to it (one Xmas episode really did it for her), so that means we listen to other Xmas themed shows instead.  We move on.  I can't imagine what people would think of Fibber McGee and Molly considering they were very much in the now for the time.

I actually think it could lead to some very good discussions (if able to be done civilly, which is much easier said then done, which is why I think some groups shy away from it, because it could devolve and rather quickly at that).

Every Dec 7th, I do nothing but the complete broadcast of Pearl Harbor as far as "entertainment" goes.  Now, I minored in history, but majored in Equine Nutrition/Reproduction, this was in one of those equine classes and the final was on Dec 7 and a bonus question was "What about on this day XX yrs ago?".  This was an aggie class, but I was the only person that knew that answer.  So much for "A date that will live in infamy".

That's the kinda thing that concerns me.

---
Evan


On 2021-04-24 10:52 AM, Gordon Johansen wrote:

On the other hand, using these shows to train a new generation of believers in bigotry is not acceptable in my opinion.

Gord

Wild West Designs wrote on 4/24/21 9:28 AM:

I wish everyone accepted history warts and all.  That's what concerns me and I think that's what concern's Jackie.  And this group is very much about history, warts and all (a world impacting problematic event is right smack dab in the middle of this era).  I don't much like the comedy from OTR, that doesn't mean that I want the comedy stripped out from preservation.  I don't like commercials in shows that I'm listening to.  That doesn't mean that I want commercials stripped out for preservation (even though I'm really not a fan of Chesterfields given the type of product that it is).

My concern is those that don't like those things and want them stripped out, because they don't like them and thus everyone else shouldn't like them either.  Which to me is the antithesis of what the group is all about, which is about preservation, regardless if you like it or not.  That nuance/context is being lost.

This group is a very good group (I have been with it thru several iterations (as far as means of communication)). That contacting off list stuff, I don't agree with that at all.  That's not what I'm about.   People on the other hand may have different ideas of me, especially after this thread (which is why I debated posting it).  I did it, because I truly love this hobby (as I think most do, it is something that has brought us together) and I don't want it to fall victim like other subcultures that I have been apart of as well, depending on how you look at it, even longer then I have been involved in OTR.  For instance, I didn't grew up during the era, when I was 6, Louis L'Amour started putting out audio dramas (so it really depends if you think of OTR as more of audio drama or strictly drama within the certain timeframe in America) of his short stories and that's literally what I grew up with (the last regularly released one was the spring of my senior year).  When I was 10 is when I started listening to NAoSH, Dragnet, TTR.  Got involved seriously in the mid to late 90s via IRC (some on here remember me from that). 

But we all know what they say about the best of intentions....

---
Evan


John
 

You're right , Jackie!

Nothing says "open minded and accepting" like banning everything one is personally not in agreement with, like the woke folk .

Thanks for the comment!
John

 

On Friday, April 23, 2021, 5:57 PM, jackies@... via groups.io <jackies=tularosa.net@groups.io> wrote:

I love the ones the Woke crowd has had banned.  All the old Cartoons
Betty Book, Disney cartoons Tom & Jerry all those old cartoons.  You
can't even buy them anywhere anymore.  No store want's to be call
bigoted but they and the woke crowd are the one's being bigoted.  So sad
they are refusing their children the joy of Cartoons because that was
why they were created to give joy to children.

Sincerely
Jackie Schlageter


On 2021-04-23 16:33, Richard Davenport wrote:
> Jackie,
> I have tons from all eras as well.  I especially like the ones that
> are banned.  Whatever....
>
> Name your poison
>
> Rick
>
> Also if you are on the dc hubs I am wraith there and all my stuff is
> up for grabs
>
> Rick
>> On Apr 23, 2021, at 2:07 PM, Philip Atchley <ko6bb1@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jackie,
>>
>> I have over 4,300 cartoons (449GB), old and newer, movie and TV
>> available for direct download on any of the 4 hubs I am logged into,
>> usually 24/7.  The (private) hubs I use are Oldtymeradioman, OTR Hub,
>> PhilsPlace, and DooDrop Inn.  All you need is to have the DC++ (or
>> airDC etc) software on your computer and of course hub membership to
>> whichever hubs you're interested in.
>>
>> <>< 73 From "The Beaconeer's Lair" <><
>> Specializing in DXing NDBs (Longwave Beacons)
>> Phil, KO6BB,  http://www.qsl.net/ko6bb/
>> KO6BB/B beacon, ~23W on 28.290 MHz, Ringo Vertical
>>
>> HF/LF RADIOS:
>> YAESU:    FTDX-101MP Xceiver, Dual SDR Receivers (~2020)
>> YAESU:    FTDX-3000 Xceiver, DSP IF, 300Hz Roofing filter (~2019).
>> Beacon:  Realistic HTX-100 on 28.290MHz (CW Beacon)
>> Uniden:  SDS-200 Scanner, 25-1300MHz (2020)
>> Eton:    Elite 750 (2), AKA Grundig Satelite 750 (2020)
>> HOMEBREW: 7 Tube+Rect 1v3 Regen RX for LF (built 2015)
>> SDRS:    Perseus 10KHz-40MHz (2020)
>>          Softrock Ensemble II LF Receiver (kit, 2017)
>>          Softrock Ensemble II HF Receiver (Kit, 2019)
>>        ACC: MFJ-993B  Auto Antenna Matcher.
>>    HOMEBREW  LF-MF Pre-Amp, 8Hz Audio Filter.
>>    HOMEBREW  4 Port Antenna Multicoupler, Feeds 4 RX's.
>>
>> ANTENNAS:      88 foot Long Ladder-line fed dipole, ~35 feet AGL for
>> MW/HF.
>>              Top Loaded Tee (Dipole fed as single element) ~35 Feet
>> AGL.
>>              Comet CHA-250B HF Vertical at ~24 Feet AGL For HF.
>>              Cushcraft AR-10 Ringo Vertical, ~20 feet AGL for 10M.
>>              Ratzlaff Active whip, 5 Foot Long, ~16 Feet AGL For
>> LF/MW/HF.
>>              Wellbrook ALA1530LN Loop For LF/MW/HF at ~17 Feet AGL
>>              Diamond Discone ~35 feet AGL for Scanner.
>> Merced, Central California, 37, 18, 37N  120, 30, 6W CM97rh
>>
>>> On 4/23/2021 5:59 PM, jackies@... via groups.io wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any of the old cartoons they can share?  My daughter
>>> loves those and she ordered and paid for some to watch on one of the
>>> sites you can get on the new TV's and they canceled the order because
>>> they were too white is the only thing I can think of now. I mean our
>>> country is going to Heck in a hat and a handbag as my mom used to say
>>> only she didn't use the word Heck.  They don't want people to watch
>>> anything that is really entertaining and not full of the S word.  I
>>> saw it coming and started collecting OTR in the 90's.  Cost me a
>>> pretty penny but at least I had things that were suitable for my
>>> children who were a lot younger then.
>>>
>>> Love
>>> Jackie
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>






Mike Thomas
 

I also collect otTV and otm. I am on a few hubs but I have more on disc than in my share. It's a slow process getting them converted and into share. Recently I added some rare 60s sitcoms like love on a rooftop. Ok crackerby. Ichabod and me. Occasional wife. Stuff I haven't seen in anyone share


On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 12:32 PM, John
<johnk5mo@...> wrote:
You're right , Jackie!

Nothing says "open minded and accepting" like banning everything one is personally not in agreement with, like the woke folk .

Thanks for the comment!
John

 

On Friday, April 23, 2021, 5:57 PM, jackies@... via groups.io <jackies=tularosa.net@groups.io> wrote:

I love the ones the Woke crowd has had banned.  All the old Cartoons
Betty Book, Disney cartoons Tom & Jerry all those old cartoons.  You
can't even buy them anywhere anymore.  No store want's to be call
bigoted but they and the woke crowd are the one's being bigoted.  So sad
they are refusing their children the joy of Cartoons because that was
why they were created to give joy to children.

Sincerely
Jackie Schlageter


On 2021-04-23 16:33, Richard Davenport wrote:
> Jackie,
> I have tons from all eras as well.  I especially like the ones that
> are banned.  Whatever....
>
> Name your poison
>
> Rick
>
> Also if you are on the dc hubs I am wraith there and all my stuff is
> up for grabs
>
> Rick
>> On Apr 23, 2021, at 2:07 PM, Philip Atchley <ko6bb1@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jackie,
>>
>> I have over 4,300 cartoons (449GB), old and newer, movie and TV
>> available for direct download on any of the 4 hubs I am logged into,
>> usually 24/7.  The (private) hubs I use are Oldtymeradioman, OTR Hub,
>> PhilsPlace, and DooDrop Inn.  All you need is to have the DC++ (or
>> airDC etc) software on your computer and of course hub membership to
>> whichever hubs you're interested in.
>>
>> <>< 73 From "The Beaconeer's Lair" <><
>> Specializing in DXing NDBs (Longwave Beacons)
>> Phil, KO6BB,  http://www.qsl.net/ko6bb/
>> KO6BB/B beacon, ~23W on 28.290 MHz, Ringo Vertical
>>
>> HF/LF RADIOS:
>> YAESU:    FTDX-101MP Xceiver, Dual SDR Receivers (~2020)
>> YAESU:    FTDX-3000 Xceiver, DSP IF, 300Hz Roofing filter (~2019).
>> Beacon:  Realistic HTX-100 on 28.290MHz (CW Beacon)
>> Uniden:  SDS-200 Scanner, 25-1300MHz (2020)
>> Eton:    Elite 750 (2), AKA Grundig Satelite 750 (2020)
>> HOMEBREW: 7 Tube+Rect 1v3 Regen RX for LF (built 2015)
>> SDRS:    Perseus 10KHz-40MHz (2020)
>>          Softrock Ensemble II LF Receiver (kit, 2017)
>>          Softrock Ensemble II HF Receiver (Kit, 2019)
>>        ACC: MFJ-993B  Auto Antenna Matcher.
>>    HOMEBREW  LF-MF Pre-Amp, 8Hz Audio Filter.
>>    HOMEBREW  4 Port Antenna Multicoupler, Feeds 4 RX's.
>>
>> ANTENNAS:      88 foot Long Ladder-line fed dipole, ~35 feet AGL for
>> MW/HF.
>>              Top Loaded Tee (Dipole fed as single element) ~35 Feet
>> AGL.
>>              Comet CHA-250B HF Vertical at ~24 Feet AGL For HF.
>>              Cushcraft AR-10 Ringo Vertical, ~20 feet AGL for 10M.
>>              Ratzlaff Active whip, 5 Foot Long, ~16 Feet AGL For
>> LF/MW/HF.
>>              Wellbrook ALA1530LN Loop For LF/MW/HF at ~17 Feet AGL
>>              Diamond Discone ~35 feet AGL for Scanner.
>> Merced, Central California, 37, 18, 37N  120, 30, 6W CM97rh
>>
>>> On 4/23/2021 5:59 PM, jackies@... via groups.io wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any of the old cartoons they can share?  My daughter
>>> loves those and she ordered and paid for some to watch on one of the
>>> sites you can get on the new TV's and they canceled the order because
>>> they were too white is the only thing I can think of now. I mean our
>>> country is going to Heck in a hat and a handbag as my mom used to say
>>> only she didn't use the word Heck.  They don't want people to watch
>>> anything that is really entertaining and not full of the S word.  I
>>> saw it coming and started collecting OTR in the 90's.  Cost me a
>>> pretty penny but at least I had things that were suitable for my
>>> children who were a lot younger then.
>>>
>>> Love
>>> Jackie
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>






Alan Kline
 

Add my request to Alan’s. This isn’t a political forum.

As to Jackie’s original assertion: Nothing has been “banned”, which implies a governmental edict.  The cartoons mentioned were withdrawn from public distribution by the copyright owners decades ago for reasons mentioned in another post—in the case of Warner Bros, 1968. These were decisions made by private companies exercising their rights to manage their businesses. Free enterprise, right? It has nothing to do with the current “woke” climate, whatever that’s supposed to mean. 

At most, we’re talking about 1 or 2 dozen cartoons out of the thousands produced in Hollywood in the “Golden Era”. In the case of Warner Bros., 11 out of about 1000.  One percent of Warner’s output. In fact, I’m not aware of *any* Betty Boop or Tom and Jerry cartoons that were withdrawn from distribution because of racial stereotypes. How would you even get that sort of thing into a cartoon about a cat chasing a mouse?

And we have to remember that producers of these cartoons were not trying to offend people—that didn’t make money in 1942, and it doesn’t today. Warner’s “Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves” was meant as a parody of Disney’s “Snow White”—at a time when radio listeners were devoted to “Amos and Andy”. Society has evolved. It’s that simple. In other cases, the stereotypes were of people against whom we were fighting in a world war, but who are now our friends.

Warner and Disney, in fact, have both released DVD/BluRay collections of cartoons with some stereotypes—with on-camera disclaimers from Leonard Maltin and Whoopi Goldberg, respectively. All of the major characters—including Betty, T&J, Popeye, and the Warners and Disney characters—are available right now on Amazon (Disney cartoons might be harder to find, but that’s a function of how The Mouse distributes all of its video product.) All of them, except Disney, air 6 days a week on MeTV. (BTW, they’re adding The Pink Panther to the Saturday lineup next month, if you’re into 60’s hip...)

I apologize for the length of this—I know it’s tangential to the purpose of OTRR. But as a group dedicated to the preservation of historic media, I think it’s important.

Alan Kline 





On Apr 24, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Litsey, Alan <alitsey@...> wrote:



I respectfully request we refrain from the offensive political posts. And the objectification of those who may hold values that differ from ours.  

 

Alan Litsey

 

_._,_._,_


Wild West Designs
 

Absolutely, the companies own their respective IPs and it is in their right to do so (the IPs those are getting consolidated into one company's portfolio though).  You have had changed to IPs before (Lucas with Han shooting 2nd, Disney adding swim wear to Daryl Hannah in Splash at the end of the movie for their streaming service).

As far as the "woke" crowd, you had people loudly wanting to get rid of Peppy and they also tried to get rid of Speedy, but the people that were supposed to be offended by Speedy actually went to bat for Speedy (there is irony there, the people that actually were complaining about Speedy and the stereotype were not of that demographic and the ones that were were defending Speedy, which is a reoccurring scenario lately).  Both of these examples were to do with Space Jam 2 that is supposed to be released soon, so it definitely has to do with the "woke" climate.

Now, a lot of this has to do with video, but bare in mind we do have streaming services for OTR (Radio Spirits being one right off the top of my mind, while it does also have a download option (capped if I recall per month) that could still change at any moment when their license changes), so it does still apply to us.  It's the lose of the physical media and being dependent on streaming (someone else servers, not streaming locally with your own collection mind you).

I am no way advocating a total free for all political discussion, but I would certainly argue that some aspects do affect our efforts for preservation and I think that they would be good to discuss.  If nothing else, in order to make plans as to where to focus on preservation if something is to be changed with availability.

Evan


On 2021-04-24 09:26 PM, Alan Kline wrote:

Add my request to Alan's. This isn't a political forum.
 
As to Jackie's original assertion: Nothing has been "banned", which implies a governmental edict.  The cartoons mentioned were withdrawn from public distribution by the copyright owners decades ago for reasons mentioned in another post—in the case of Warner Bros, 1968. These were decisions made by private companies exercising their rights to manage their businesses. Free enterprise, right? It has nothing to do with the current "woke" climate, whatever that's supposed to mean. 
 
At most, we're talking about 1 or 2 dozen cartoons out of the thousands produced in Hollywood in the "Golden Era". In the case of Warner Bros., 11 out of about 1000.  One percent of Warner's output. In fact, I'm not aware of *any* Betty Boop or Tom and Jerry cartoons that were withdrawn from distribution because of racial stereotypes. How would you even get that sort of thing into a cartoon about a cat chasing a mouse?
 
And we have to remember that producers of these cartoons were not trying to offend people—that didn't make money in 1942, and it doesn't today. Warner's "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves" was meant as a parody of Disney's "Snow White"—at a time when radio listeners were devoted to "Amos and Andy". Society has evolved. It's that simple. In other cases, the stereotypes were of people against whom we were fighting in a world war, but who are now our friends.
 
Warner and Disney, in fact, have both released DVD/BluRay collections of cartoons with some stereotypes—with on-camera disclaimers from Leonard Maltin and Whoopi Goldberg, respectively. All of the major characters—including Betty, T&J, Popeye, and the Warners and Disney characters—are available right now on Amazon (Disney cartoons might be harder to find, but that's a function of how The Mouse distributes all of its video product.) All of them, except Disney, air 6 days a week on MeTV. (BTW, they're adding The Pink Panther to the Saturday lineup next month, if you're into 60's hip...)
 
I apologize for the length of this—I know it's tangential to the purpose of OTRR. But as a group dedicated to the preservation of historic media, I think it's important.
 
Alan Kline 
 
 
 
 

On Apr 24, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Litsey, Alan <alitsey@...> wrote:

I respectfully request we refrain from the offensive political posts. And the objectification of those who may hold values that differ from ours.  

 

Alan Litsey

 


Ryan Ellett
 

I know people have mentioned Evan's point in the past, but I don't remember if it was here or on the Facebook page. On the extremely tiny chance (in my opinion) that all internet service providers decided they would not host old-time radio web content, I think most hobbyists would go on sharing content privately as has been done since the '50s and is still being done. While making it available on our website or Internet Archive or YouTube certainly expands the potential audience, it's not necessary for any preservation purposes. Or we could find some hosting service outside the United States.

Practically speaking I don't see old-time radio disappearing from the internet. Even universities and the Library of Congress feature historical broadcasts. It'd be impossible for any hosting service to enforce, it seems. You might see pressure to remove some of the minstrel-type shows or even Amos n Andy but those shows are well preserved in private collections and will not be in danger of disappearing. Preservation is not connected to ease of public access, as witnessed by all the material in library archive holdings. 

I may be misunderstanding Evan's concern but OTRR has over the years removed material from our public library at the request of rights holders and to avoid attracting unwanted attention in other cases, but the material is still readily available should anyone want to hear it. 

www.RyanEllett.com


The Old Time Radio Researchers
"Saving the Past for the Future"





I am no way advocating a total free for all political discussion, but I would certainly argue that some aspects do affect our efforts for preservation and I think that they would be good to discuss.  If nothing else, in order to make plans as to where to focus on preservation if something is to be changed with availability.

Evan




Wild West Designs
 

There has been one university radio station that did remove some radio broadcasts from their lineup (just one mind you, but the precedent has now been set).  Was it in Michigan, Wisconsin?  I'm wanting to say it was one of those and I think it was Amos and Andy in particular, at least what was cited if I'm remembering correctly, I have slept since then.  I think that was mentioned in the FB group last year.  I think it was last summer.

Ease of access in this instance, is very much the concern with preservation.  To me, and I could be wrong about this, preservation is linked to ease of access.  If it is only available to a select view, then preservation loses it's meaning.  It's still preservation, but it has become distorted.  Corrupted if you will as it specifically applies to OTR.  Part of preservation (at least for me, and this may differ from others and that's fine) is apart of sharing.  Culture that was written for everyone, should be preserved and enjoyed by everyone (and there are different ways for past content to be "enjoyed" as well).  Even if it's in the past and as a culture we have moved past those norms (at least so I thought).  Now, if it is a culture of a small group, then yes, ease of access may be different then.  While we are a small, niche group doing preservation, what we are trying to preserve is a part of a country's culture, not just one tiny group's culture.  I hope that makes sense, I may still be totally off my rocker, but hopefully there appears to be some method to my madness.

Hosting being able to enforce, is more reactive as they are dependent (at least right now) for people to report when they see things (and depending on where the hosting company is located), but I'm sure they can come up with some ToS violation to get it removed for a "valid" reason.  While doing a hosting outside the US may be a valid option, we would still have to worry about connecting to that outside server from within the US.  Still possible, but not quite as easy.

You have to remember ebay removed the sale of those 6 "problematic" Dr Seuss books when listings were reported.  It appears no 1st sale doctrine applies there if it's "problematic" (as they were used books).  So while, owner's of the IP may be able to limit future pressings etc, it going after what the 1st sale doctrine is supposed to allow for is something else (by the way, for those that buy digital goods, 1st sale doctrine (at least from what I can tell as a non lawyer) doesn't tend to apply even with downloaded digital goods (even less so with non downloaded goods, we have less rights with those)).

Now, I will say this, I'm wildly risk adverse about some things, so even a small chance is no bueno in my book.  So take that into account as well.

Evan


On 2021-04-25 08:48 AM, Ryan Ellett via groups.io wrote:

I know people have mentioned Evan's point in the past, but I don't remember if it was here or on the Facebook page. On the extremely tiny chance (in my opinion) that all internet service providers decided they would not host old-time radio web content, I think most hobbyists would go on sharing content privately as has been done since the '50s and is still being done. While making it available on our website or Internet Archive or YouTube certainly expands the potential audience, it's not necessary for any preservation purposes. Or we could find some hosting service outside the United States.
 
Practically speaking I don't see old-time radio disappearing from the internet. Even universities and the Library of Congress feature historical broadcasts. It'd be impossible for any hosting service to enforce, it seems. You might see pressure to remove some of the minstrel-type shows or even Amos n Andy but those shows are well preserved in private collections and will not be in danger of disappearing. Preservation is not connected to ease of public access, as witnessed by all the material in library archive holdings. 
 
I may be misunderstanding Evan's concern but OTRR has over the years removed material from our public library at the request of rights holders and to avoid attracting unwanted attention in other cases, but the material is still readily available should anyone want to hear it. 
 
www.RyanEllett.com
 
 
The Old Time Radio Researchers
"Saving the Past for the Future"
 
 
 
 
 

I am no way advocating a total free for all political discussion, but I would certainly argue that some aspects do affect our efforts for preservation and I think that they would be good to discuss.  If nothing else, in order to make plans as to where to focus on preservation if something is to be changed with availability.

Evan


 

 


-
 

There was a sat/sun otr 3 hr. show on wpr that was removed entirely without explaning what was "offensive" ffor an entire historical genre; not just individuall examples
of what might bee"offensive".

'Wis. Public Radio drops old-time radio shows over racist, sexist content'

https://www.wdio.com/duluth-minnesota-news/wisconsin-public-radio-drops-old-time-radio-shows-over-racist-sexist-content/5758411/

On Sun, 25 Apr 2021, Wild West Designs wrote:

There has been one university radio station that did remove some radio
broadcasts from their lineup (just one mind you, but the precedent has
now been set). Was it in Michigan, Wisconsin? I'm wanting to say it
was one of those and I think it was Amos and Andy in particular, at
least what was cited if I'm remembering correctly, I have slept since
then. I think that was mentioned in the FB group last year. I think it
was last summer.

Ease of access in this instance, is very much the concern with
preservation. To me, and I could be wrong about this, preservation is
linked to ease of access. If it is only available to a select view,
then preservation loses it's meaning. It's still preservation, but it
has become distorted. Corrupted if you will as it specifically applies
to OTR. Part of preservation (at least for me, and this may differ from
others and that's fine) is apart of sharing. Culture that was written
for everyone, should be preserved and enjoyed by everyone (and there are
different ways for past content to be "enjoyed" as well). Even if it's
in the past and as a culture we have moved past those norms (at least so
I thought). Now, if it is a culture of a small group, then yes, ease of
access may be different then. While we are a small, niche group doing
preservation, what we are trying to preserve is a part of a country's
culture, not just one tiny group's culture. I hope that makes sense, I
may still be totally off my rocker, but hopefully there appears to be
some method to my madness.

Hosting being able to enforce, is more reactive as they are dependent
(at least right now) for people to report when they see things (and
depending on where the hosting company is located), but I'm sure they
can come up with some ToS violation to get it removed for a "valid"
reason. While doing a hosting outside the US may be a valid option, we
would still have to worry about connecting to that outside server from
within the US. Still possible, but not quite as easy.

You have to remember ebay removed the sale of those 6 "problematic" Dr
Seuss books when listings were reported. It appears no 1st sale
doctrine applies there if it's "problematic" (as they were used books).
So while, owner's of the IP may be able to limit future pressings etc,
it going after what the 1st sale doctrine is supposed to allow for is
something else (by the way, for those that buy digital goods, 1st sale
doctrine (at least from what I can tell as a non lawyer) doesn't tend to
apply even with downloaded digital goods (even less so with non
downloaded goods, we have less rights with those)).

Now, I will say this, I'm wildly risk adverse about some things, so even
a small chance is no bueno in my book. So take that into account as
well.

Evan

On 2021-04-25 08:48 AM, Ryan Ellett via groups.io wrote:

I know people have mentioned Evan's point in the past, but I don't
remember if it was here or on the Facebook page. On the extremely tiny
chance (in my opinion) that all internet service providers decided they
would not host old-time radio web content, I think most hobbyists would
go on sharing content privately as has been done since the '50s and is
still being done. While making it available on our website or Internet
Archive or YouTube certainly expands the potential audience, it's not
necessary for any preservation purposes. Or we could find some hosting
service outside the United States.

Practically speaking I don't see old-time radio disappearing from the
internet. Even universities and the Library of Congress feature
historical broadcasts. It'd be impossible for any hosting service to
enforce, it seems. You might see pressure to remove some of the
minstrel-type shows or even Amos n Andy but those shows are well
preserved in private collections and will not be in danger of
disappearing. Preservation is not connected to ease of public access,
as witnessed by all the material in library archive holdings.

I may be misunderstanding Evan's concern but OTRR has over the years
removed material from our public library at the request of rights
holders and to avoid attracting unwanted attention in other cases, but
the material is still readily available should anyone want to hear it.

www.RyanEllett.com

The Old Time Radio Researchers
"Saving the Past for the Future"

http://www.OTRR.org
http://otrr.org/?c=library

I am no way advocating a total free for all political discussion, but I
would certainly argue that some aspects do affect our efforts for
preservation and I think that they would be good to discuss. If
nothing else, in order to make plans as to where to focus on
preservation if something is to be changed with availability.

Evan


Links:
------
[1] https://OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io/g/main/message/3171
[2] https://groups.io/mt/82284804/2076446
[3] https://OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io/g/main/post
[4] https://OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io/g/main/editsub/2076446
[5]
https://OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io/g/main/leave/4413045/2076446/1775896519/xyzzy





--
Dan d.
XR


Mike Thomas
 

Corey, otrhub, Phil's place,  dew drop in

Those are perhaps the hubs that are easiest and most active.

Inside the membership of these three are other possibilities but are by invite only.

A fellow that goes by wildbill can get you into the first two. One of the moderators got me into the third.

I have found almost anything an otr ,old movie, old tv, or audio book would want


On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 10:40 AM, -
<dandunfee@...> wrote:
There was a sat/sun otr 3 hr. show on wpr that was removed entirely without explaning what was "offensive" ffor an entire historical genre; not just individuall examples
of what might bee"offensive".

'Wis. Public Radio drops old-time radio shows over racist, sexist content'



On Sun, 25 Apr 2021, Wild West Designs wrote:

> There has been one university radio station that did remove some radio
> broadcasts from their lineup (just one mind you, but the precedent has
> now been set).  Was it in Michigan, Wisconsin?  I'm wanting to say it
> was one of those and I think it was Amos and Andy in particular, at
> least what was cited if I'm remembering correctly, I have slept since
> then.  I think that was mentioned in the FB group last year.  I think it
> was last summer.
>
> Ease of access in this instance, is very much the concern with
> preservation.  To me, and I could be wrong about this, preservation is
> linked to ease of access.  If it is only available to a select view,
> then preservation loses it's meaning.  It's still preservation, but it
> has become distorted.  Corrupted if you will as it specifically applies
> to OTR.  Part of preservation (at least for me, and this may differ from
> others and that's fine) is apart of sharing.  Culture that was written
> for everyone, should be preserved and enjoyed by everyone (and there are
> different ways for past content to be "enjoyed" as well).  Even if it's
> in the past and as a culture we have moved past those norms (at least so
> I thought).  Now, if it is a culture of a small group, then yes, ease of
> access may be different then.  While we are a small, niche group doing
> preservation, what we are trying to preserve is a part of a country's
> culture, not just one tiny group's culture.  I hope that makes sense, I
> may still be totally off my rocker, but hopefully there appears to be
> some method to my madness.
>
> Hosting being able to enforce, is more reactive as they are dependent
> (at least right now) for people to report when they see things (and
> depending on where the hosting company is located), but I'm sure they
> can come up with some ToS violation to get it removed for a "valid"
> reason.  While doing a hosting outside the US may be a valid option, we
> would still have to worry about connecting to that outside server from
> within the US.  Still possible, but not quite as easy.
>
> You have to remember ebay removed the sale of those 6 "problematic" Dr
> Seuss books when listings were reported.  It appears no 1st sale
> doctrine applies there if it's "problematic" (as they were used books).
> So while, owner's of the IP may be able to limit future pressings etc,
> it going after what the 1st sale doctrine is supposed to allow for is
> something else (by the way, for those that buy digital goods, 1st sale
> doctrine (at least from what I can tell as a non lawyer) doesn't tend to
> apply even with downloaded digital goods (even less so with non
> downloaded goods, we have less rights with those)).
>
> Now, I will say this, I'm wildly risk adverse about some things, so even
> a small chance is no bueno in my book.  So take that into account as
> well.
>
> Evan
>
> On 2021-04-25 08:48 AM, Ryan Ellett via groups.io wrote:
>
> > I know people have mentioned Evan's point in the past, but I don't
> > remember if it was here or on the Facebook page. On the extremely tiny
> > chance (in my opinion) that all internet service providers decided they
> > would not host old-time radio web content, I think most hobbyists would
> > go on sharing content privately as has been done since the '50s and is
> > still being done. While making it available on our website or Internet
> > Archive or YouTube certainly expands the potential audience, it's not
> > necessary for any preservation purposes. Or we could find some hosting
> > service outside the United States.
> >
> > Practically speaking I don't see old-time radio disappearing from the
> > internet. Even universities and the Library of Congress feature
> > historical broadcasts. It'd be impossible for any hosting service to
> > enforce, it seems. You might see pressure to remove some of the
> > minstrel-type shows or even Amos n Andy but those shows are well
> > preserved in private collections and will not be in danger of
> > disappearing. Preservation is not connected to ease of public access,
> > as witnessed by all the material in library archive holdings.
> >
> > I may be misunderstanding Evan's concern but OTRR has over the years
> > removed material from our public library at the request of rights
> > holders and to avoid attracting unwanted attention in other cases, but
> > the material is still readily available should anyone want to hear it.
> >
> > www.RyanEllett.com
> >
> > The Old Time Radio Researchers
> > "Saving the Past for the Future"
> >
> >
> > I am no way advocating a total free for all political discussion, but I
> > would certainly argue that some aspects do affect our efforts for
> > preservation and I think that they would be good to discuss.  If
> > nothing else, in order to make plans as to where to focus on
> > preservation if something is to be changed with availability.
> >
> > Evan
> >
> >
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [5]
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Dan d.
XR






Mike Thomas
 

Wraith is Richard D.
Ko6BB is Phil A.

Now i have names to go with the familiar nicks.

I am pilgrim

Small world.

Anyone here know what happened to Harvey Markfield?



On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 3:40 PM, Mike Thomas via groups.io
<thomaspilgrims@...> wrote:
Corey, otrhub, Phil's place,  dew drop in

Those are perhaps the hubs that are easiest and most active.

Inside the membership of these three are other possibilities but are by invite only.

A fellow that goes by wildbill can get you into the first two. One of the moderators got me into the third.

I have found almost anything an otr ,old movie, old tv, or audio book would want


On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 10:40 AM, -
<dandunfee@...> wrote:
There was a sat/sun otr 3 hr. show on wpr that was removed entirely without explaning what was "offensive" ffor an entire historical genre; not just individuall examples
of what might bee"offensive".

'Wis. Public Radio drops old-time radio shows over racist, sexist content'



On Sun, 25 Apr 2021, Wild West Designs wrote:

> There has been one university radio station that did remove some radio
> broadcasts from their lineup (just one mind you, but the precedent has
> now been set).  Was it in Michigan, Wisconsin?  I'm wanting to say it
> was one of those and I think it was Amos and Andy in particular, at
> least what was cited if I'm remembering correctly, I have slept since
> then.  I think that was mentioned in the FB group last year.  I think it
> was last summer.
>
> Ease of access in this instance, is very much the concern with
> preservation.  To me, and I could be wrong about this, preservation is
> linked to ease of access.  If it is only available to a select view,
> then preservation loses it's meaning.  It's still preservation, but it
> has become distorted.  Corrupted if you will as it specifically applies
> to OTR.  Part of preservation (at least for me, and this may differ from
> others and that's fine) is apart of sharing.  Culture that was written
> for everyone, should be preserved and enjoyed by everyone (and there are
> different ways for past content to be "enjoyed" as well).  Even if it's
> in the past and as a culture we have moved past those norms (at least so
> I thought).  Now, if it is a culture of a small group, then yes, ease of
> access may be different then.  While we are a small, niche group doing
> preservation, what we are trying to preserve is a part of a country's
> culture, not just one tiny group's culture.  I hope that makes sense, I
> may still be totally off my rocker, but hopefully there appears to be
> some method to my madness.
>
> Hosting being able to enforce, is more reactive as they are dependent
> (at least right now) for people to report when they see things (and
> depending on where the hosting company is located), but I'm sure they
> can come up with some ToS violation to get it removed for a "valid"
> reason.  While doing a hosting outside the US may be a valid option, we
> would still have to worry about connecting to that outside server from
> within the US.  Still possible, but not quite as easy.
>
> You have to remember ebay removed the sale of those 6 "problematic" Dr
> Seuss books when listings were reported.  It appears no 1st sale
> doctrine applies there if it's "problematic" (as they were used books).
> So while, owner's of the IP may be able to limit future pressings etc,
> it going after what the 1st sale doctrine is supposed to allow for is
> something else (by the way, for those that buy digital goods, 1st sale
> doctrine (at least from what I can tell as a non lawyer) doesn't tend to
> apply even with downloaded digital goods (even less so with non
> downloaded goods, we have less rights with those)).
>
> Now, I will say this, I'm wildly risk adverse about some things, so even
> a small chance is no bueno in my book.  So take that into account as
> well.
>
> Evan
>
> On 2021-04-25 08:48 AM, Ryan Ellett via groups.io wrote:
>
> > I know people have mentioned Evan's point in the past, but I don't
> > remember if it was here or on the Facebook page. On the extremely tiny
> > chance (in my opinion) that all internet service providers decided they
> > would not host old-time radio web content, I think most hobbyists would
> > go on sharing content privately as has been done since the '50s and is
> > still being done. While making it available on our website or Internet
> > Archive or YouTube certainly expands the potential audience, it's not
> > necessary for any preservation purposes. Or we could find some hosting
> > service outside the United States.
> >
> > Practically speaking I don't see old-time radio disappearing from the
> > internet. Even universities and the Library of Congress feature
> > historical broadcasts. It'd be impossible for any hosting service to
> > enforce, it seems. You might see pressure to remove some of the
> > minstrel-type shows or even Amos n Andy but those shows are well
> > preserved in private collections and will not be in danger of
> > disappearing. Preservation is not connected to ease of public access,
> > as witnessed by all the material in library archive holdings.
> >
> > I may be misunderstanding Evan's concern but OTRR has over the years
> > removed material from our public library at the request of rights
> > holders and to avoid attracting unwanted attention in other cases, but
> > the material is still readily available should anyone want to hear it.
> >
> > www.RyanEllett.com
> >
> > The Old Time Radio Researchers
> > "Saving the Past for the Future"
> >
> >
> > I am no way advocating a total free for all political discussion, but I
> > would certainly argue that some aspects do affect our efforts for
> > preservation and I think that they would be good to discuss.  If
> > nothing else, in order to make plans as to where to focus on
> > preservation if something is to be changed with availability.
> >
> > Evan
> >
> >
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [5]
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Dan d.
XR






Wild West Designs
 

That might have been it.  It fits location and time period when it was published.

Maybe I assumed Amos and Andy due to it mentioning comedy.

I don't know why they just didn't do the normal disclaimer (even after returning from station breaks if afraid that later joiners missed it originally) saying that the show doesn't represent the values of the station as it is today and the shows should be judged/enjoyed in the context of when they original aired.  If someone still has a problem, they should just go elsewhere, no need to consumer the entertainment.

Even if they totally took the OTR block off the air, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem.  They can cater to whatever market that they want to.  What I do have a problem is when people (I'm not saying WPR is/was one of them, talking general here) that don't want it or trying to get it denied to people that do want it, for whatever reason and in a lot of instances, the market that does want it tends to be bigger then the market that doesn't want it.  Just not as vocal (and I think that's part of the problem), but they do tend to "speak" louder with their wallet though.  This is why we have a new saying in our lexicon ("get woke, go broke").

This is why I worry about what Conde Nast is going to do with the Shadow (now the direct issue was what went on with Teen Vogue, while not directly Conde, it is apart of their media empire if I'm remembering correctly).  I saw The Lone Ranger ruined by Disney (and I so wanted to like that movie).  Now, it is their IP to ruin, that is true.  But once you know where a certain IP leads to, it's very hard to totally enjoy the old stuff and the people that were apart of that legacy.

I think people underestimate how important our hero's are from a cultural and societal standpoint.

---

Evan West

otrDB and otrDBPlayer programs using Qt framework


On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 10:40 AM, -
<dandunfee@...> wrote:
There was a sat/sun otr 3 hr. show on wpr that was removed entirely without explaning what was "offensive" ffor an entire historical genre; not just individuall examples
of what might bee"offensive".
 
'Wis. Public Radio drops old-time radio shows over racist, sexist content'
 
 
 


-
 

In contrast to the wpr decision to remove otr as a whole ; wamu another university station with a weekend otr show does a heads up for an episode which might contain
questionable situations/contents for some. The host explains what it is and some idea of context for it. This makes it a teachable moment in historical context that bulk
removal doesn't permit and is lost.

On Sun, 25 Apr 2021, Wild West Designs wrote:

That might have been it. It fits location and time period when it was
published.

Maybe I assumed Amos and Andy due to it mentioning comedy.

I don't know why they just didn't do the normal disclaimer (even after
returning from station breaks if afraid that later joiners missed it
originally) saying that the show doesn't represent the values of the
station as it is today and the shows should be judged/enjoyed in the
context of when they original aired. If someone still has a problem,
they should just go elsewhere, no need to consumer the entertainment.

Even if they totally took the OTR block off the air, I wouldn't
necessarily have a problem. They can cater to whatever market that they
want to. What I do have a problem is when people (I'm not saying WPR
is/was one of them, talking general here) that don't want it or trying
to get it denied to people that do want it, for whatever reason and in a
lot of instances, the market that does want it tends to be bigger then
the market that doesn't want it. Just not as vocal (and I think that's
part of the problem), but they do tend to "speak" louder with their
wallet though. This is why we have a new saying in our lexicon ("get
woke, go broke").

This is why I worry about what Conde Nast is going to do with the Shadow
(now the direct issue was what went on with Teen Vogue, while not
directly Conde, it is apart of their media empire if I'm remembering
correctly). I saw The Lone Ranger ruined by Disney (and I so wanted to
like that movie). Now, it is their IP to ruin, that is true. But once
you know where a certain IP leads to, it's very hard to totally enjoy
the old stuff and the people that were apart of that legacy.

I think people underestimate how important our hero's are from a
cultural and societal standpoint.

---
Evan West

otrDB and otrDBPlayer [1] programs using Qt framework

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 10:40 AM, -
<dandunfee@gmail.com> wrote:

There was a sat/sun otr 3 hr. show on wpr that was removed entirely
without explaning what was "offensive" ffor an entire historical genre;
not just individuall examples
of what might bee"offensive".

'Wis. Public Radio drops old-time radio shows over racist, sexist
content'

https://www.wdio.com/duluth-minnesota-news/wisconsin-public-radio-drops-old-time-radio-shows-over-racist-sexist-content/5758411/



Links:
------
[1]
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VgaYSe5wwpKOBjuaThUuwoR8JvJasMkb?usp=sharing





--
Dan d.
XR


Bob Stepno
 

"Preservation," documentation and archiving of a half century of broadcast media is a noble cause, and I trust the Internet Archive and OTRR to keep doing that -- and making the results of their research more available to the public than is allowed within the constraints of academic libraries with limited funding for properly handling multimedia materials.

As this OTRR collector-community ages, perhaps members can identify institutions they recommend for inclusion in financial bequests (not just materials) to continue the work of preservation? Have any of the club newsletters had an article about that?

As for the threat of removal of shareable archived online materials, that sounds like culture-wars paranoia. Search the Internet Archive and I suspect you'll find a full political range of previously "burned books," from Marx to Hitler. 

We can't erase racism, white-supremacy and sexism in America by hiding the fact that our entertainment media long reflected those elements when they dominated the culture. Learning from history is one thing, but I can see how a public broadcaster might have difficulty providing a 21st century context for such programming on a regular basis.

I appreciate the Wisconsin argument about an education and public service focused (and listener-supported) radio station struggling to frame broadcasts that not only "preserved" the art of audio storytelling and entertainment... but also "preserved" the attitudes of decades when, for example, on-air authority figures were almost all white males, African-American characters were mostly comic and subservient, Asians were usually servants or evil enemies (whether Chinese houseboys, "Japs" in World War II or pulp-novel master-villains in adventure series), and women were too often secondary characters, victims, or "just homemakers" (with many wonderful exceptions, thanks to numerous fine female writers and actors).

I like to think that with more time, money and imagination a radio station could have managed the "contextualization" problem, but I never heard the Wisconsin attempts, and the article admits the program was "cobbled together" from the start. 

Here's a more detailed version of the Wisconsin public radio story... 

https://madison.com/ct/entertainment/city-life/citing-racist-and-sexist-material-wpr-cancels-old-time-radio-drama-after-31-years/article_4cf0f9dc-b3de-552b-99bb-7ed2e73f6427.html

An excerpt:

<<But Ideas Network director Sheryl Gasser said the change had been in the works for years, with both listeners and staff complaining about some of the content on the historic shows.

"Certainly, the current national conversation about race played a role in moving more quickly, but this is something we had been considering for several years," Gasser said in an interview via e-mail. "Our producers worked to vet content before it was broadcast, but given the pervasive sexism and racism in some productions it was very difficult to source programs that met our values."

 
 

Gasser said "Old Time Radio Drama" had already dropped several classic shows from its programming. There was also some discussion about recontextualizing the original shows to point out their objectionable content similar to what HBO MAX is doing, but in the end that didn't seem to work for a radio show.

"People typically tune in and out at different times.  Even if we created context for the broadcasts, there would be no guarantee that people would hear them."

-----------

To me, that last sentence is the strongest argument against simply rebroadcasting 80-year-old programming to a general audience with little or no discussion. Dial-spinners might tune-in mid-broadcast and hear a racist joke, laugh, and drive on.

But Web presentations of OTR are there for people who actively seek them out, and online has much more potential for "framing" broadcasts with introductions, comments, web page links, discussion forums, and collector groups. Those could provide just the "recontextualization" the Wisc programmer was talking about.  The "comment" functions at the Internet Archive and YouTube provide that capability, along with the ability to link to "context," especially history. 

First example that comes to mind, the Amos 'n' Andy at Wikipedia,  including some of Elizabeth McLeod's analysis and details like the early disagreement about the program between the African-American newspapers Pittsburgh Courier and Chicago Defender.  (Hmm. Maybe we could drop a link to that page into the OTRRLibrary folder of A&A episodes.)

Sorry for running on... mostly thinking outloud. Back to listening...

Bob in the Blue Ridge


Wild West Designs
 

That tuning in and out is a valid concern (why I was thinking doing it several times, back from commercial break etc) would have helped.  Is it perfect, far from it.

Although I do have to wonder just how much longer traditional terrestrial radio is actually going to be a thing.  May be able to handle that better with different mediums that are coming out.

And even then, there is only so much that we can do, the question I would say is was the attempt reasonable?

What made me think of that was remembering what happened with people missing the intro to that infamous 1938 broadcast (not necessarily due to the few rare instances of legit panicking during the broadcast, but with how the broadcast was formatted (and I think also due to the lack of commercials, I don't think it was until later that MTotA had commercials (was it Campbell's I'm wanting to say?) and how that was only mentioned once to provide context.  Made for very effective drama though.  But I think that did spark some controversy due to how the story was formatted and lack of context.

Evan


On 2021-04-26 02:36 PM, Bob Stepno wrote:

"Preservation," documentation and archiving of a half century of broadcast media is a noble cause, and I trust the Internet Archive and OTRR to keep doing that -- and making the results of their research more available to the public than is allowed within the constraints of academic libraries with limited funding for properly handling multimedia materials.

As this OTRR collector-community ages, perhaps members can identify institutions they recommend for inclusion in financial bequests (not just materials) to continue the work of preservation? Have any of the club newsletters had an article about that?

As for the threat of removal of shareable archived online materials, that sounds like culture-wars paranoia. Search the Internet Archive and I suspect you'll find a full political range of previously "burned books," from Marx to Hitler. 

We can't erase racism, white-supremacy and sexism in America by hiding the fact that our entertainment media long reflected those elements when they dominated the culture. Learning from history is one thing, but I can see how a public broadcaster might have difficulty providing a 21st century context for such programming on a regular basis.

I appreciate the Wisconsin argument about an education and public service focused (and listener-supported) radio station struggling to frame broadcasts that not only "preserved" the art of audio storytelling and entertainment... but also "preserved" the attitudes of decades when, for example, on-air authority figures were almost all white males, African-American characters were mostly comic and subservient, Asians were usually servants or evil enemies (whether Chinese houseboys, "Japs" in World War II or pulp-novel master-villains in adventure series), and women were too often secondary characters, victims, or "just homemakers" (with many wonderful exceptions, thanks to numerous fine female writers and actors).

I like to think that with more time, money and imagination a radio station could have managed the "contextualization" problem, but I never heard the Wisconsin attempts, and the article admits the program was "cobbled together" from the start. 

Here's a more detailed version of the Wisconsin public radio story... 

https://madison.com/ct/entertainment/city-life/citing-racist-and-sexist-material-wpr-cancels-old-time-radio-drama-after-31-years/article_4cf0f9dc-b3de-552b-99bb-7ed2e73f6427.html

An excerpt:

<<But Ideas Network director Sheryl Gasser said the change had been in the works for years, with both listeners and staff complaining about some of the content on the historic shows.

"Certainly, the current national conversation about race played a role in moving more quickly, but this is something we had been considering for several years," Gasser said in an interview via e-mail. "Our producers worked to vet content before it was broadcast, but given the pervasive sexism and racism in some productions it was very difficult to source programs that met our values."

 
 

Gasser said "Old Time Radio Drama" had already dropped several classic shows from its programming. There was also some discussion about recontextualizing the original shows to point out their objectionable content similar to what HBO MAX is doing, but in the end that didn't seem to work for a radio show.

"People typically tune in and out at different times.  Even if we created context for the broadcasts, there would be no guarantee that people would hear them."

-----------

To me, that last sentence is the strongest argument against simply rebroadcasting 80-year-old programming to a general audience with little or no discussion. Dial-spinners might tune-in mid-broadcast and hear a racist joke, laugh, and drive on.

But Web presentations of OTR are there for people who actively seek them out, and online has much more potential for "framing" broadcasts with introductions, comments, web page links, discussion forums, and collector groups. Those could provide just the "recontextualization" the Wisc programmer was talking about.  The "comment" functions at the Internet Archive and YouTube provide that capability, along with the ability to link to "context," especially history. 

First example that comes to mind, the Amos 'n' Andy at Wikipedia,  including some of Elizabeth McLeod's analysis and details like the early disagreement about the program between the African-American newspapers Pittsburgh Courier and Chicago Defender.  (Hmm. Maybe we could drop a link to that page into the OTRRLibrary folder of A&A episodes.)

Sorry for running on... mostly thinking outloud. Back to listening...

Bob in the Blue Ridge


Walden Hughes
 

I had contacted many places over the last few years about their radio archives.  Some of decided  to close and move it to other location.  We will see how UC Santa Barbara  will  handle the new radio archives when that open in a year or so from now.    I believe the best way to support  any research in OTR is to support the clubs like SPERDVAC.  Take care,

 

Walden

 

   

 

From: main@OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io [mailto:main@OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Stepno
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 12:36 PM
To: main@OldTimeRadioResearchers.groups.io
Subject: Re: [OldTimeRadioResearchers] For Preservation's Sake

 

"Preservation," documentation and archiving of a half century of broadcast media is a noble cause, and I trust the Internet Archive and OTRR to keep doing that -- and making the results of their research more available to the public than is allowed within the constraints of academic libraries with limited funding for properly handling multimedia materials.

As this OTRR collector-community ages, perhaps members can identify institutions they recommend for inclusion in financial bequests (not just materials) to continue the work of preservation? Have any of the club newsletters had an article about that?

As for the threat of removal of shareable archived online materials, that sounds like culture-wars paranoia. Search the Internet Archive and I suspect you'll find a full political range of previously "burned books," from Marx to Hitler. 

We can't erase racism, white-supremacy and sexism in America by hiding the fact that our entertainment media long reflected those elements when they dominated the culture. Learning from history is one thing, but I can see how a public broadcaster might have difficulty providing a 21st century context for such programming on a regular basis.

I appreciate the Wisconsin argument about an education and public service focused (and listener-supported) radio station struggling to frame broadcasts that not only "preserved" the art of audio storytelling and entertainment... but also "preserved" the attitudes of decades when, for example, on-air authority figures were almost all white males, African-American characters were mostly comic and subservient, Asians were usually servants or evil enemies (whether Chinese houseboys, "Japs" in World War II or pulp-novel master-villains in adventure series), and women were too often secondary characters, victims, or "just homemakers" (with many wonderful exceptions, thanks to numerous fine female writers and actors).

I like to think that with more time, money and imagination a radio station could have managed the "contextualization" problem, but I never heard the Wisconsin attempts, and the article admits the program was "cobbled together" from the start. 

Here's a more detailed version of the Wisconsin public radio story... 

https://madison.com/ct/entertainment/city-life/citing-racist-and-sexist-material-wpr-cancels-old-time-radio-drama-after-31-years/article_4cf0f9dc-b3de-552b-99bb-7ed2e73f6427.html

An excerpt:

<<But Ideas Network director Sheryl Gasser said the change had been in the works for years, with both listeners and staff complaining about some of the content on the historic shows.

"Certainly, the current national conversation about race played a role in moving more quickly, but this is something we had been considering for several years," Gasser said in an interview via e-mail. "Our producers worked to vet content before it was broadcast, but given the pervasive sexism and racism in some productions it was very difficult to source programs that met our values."

 

 

Gasser said "Old Time Radio Drama" had already dropped several classic shows from its programming. There was also some discussion about recontextualizing the original shows to point out their objectionable content similar to what HBO MAX is doing, but in the end that didn't seem to work for a radio show.

"People typically tune in and out at different times.  Even if we created context for the broadcasts, there would be no guarantee that people would hear them."

-----------

To me, that last sentence is the strongest argument against simply rebroadcasting 80-year-old programming to a general audience with little or no discussion. Dial-spinners might tune-in mid-broadcast and hear a racist joke, laugh, and drive on.

But Web presentations of OTR are there for people who actively seek them out, and online has much more potential for "framing" broadcasts with introductions, comments, web page links, discussion forums, and collector groups. Those could provide just the "recontextualization" the Wisc programmer was talking about.  The "comment" functions at the Internet Archive and YouTube provide that capability, along with the ability to link to "context," especially history. 

First example that comes to mind, the Amos 'n' Andy at Wikipedia,  including some of Elizabeth McLeod's analysis and details like the early disagreement about the program between the African-American newspapers Pittsburgh Courier and Chicago Defender.  (Hmm. Maybe we could drop a link to that page into the OTRRLibrary folder of A&A episodes.)

Sorry for running on... mostly thinking outloud. Back to listening...

Bob in the Blue Ridge


mail@lokey.info
 

Harvey is alive and well and just as cantankerous as ever. I can send you his email address off-list of you want to get in touch with him. 

Larry

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 5:52 PM Mike Thomas via groups.io <thomaspilgrims=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Wraith is Richard D.
Ko6BB is Phil A.

Now i have names to go with the familiar nicks.

I am pilgrim

Small world.

Anyone here know what happened to Harvey Markfield?



On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 3:40 PM, Mike Thomas via groups.io
<thomaspilgrims=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Corey, otrhub, Phil's place,  dew drop in

Those are perhaps the hubs that are easiest and most active.

Inside the membership of these three are other possibilities but are by invite only.

A fellow that goes by wildbill can get you into the first two. One of the moderators got me into the third.

I have found almost anything an otr ,old movie, old tv, or audio book would want


On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 10:40 AM, -
<dandunfee@...> wrote:
There was a sat/sun otr 3 hr. show on wpr that was removed entirely without explaning what was "offensive" ffor an entire historical genre; not just individuall examples
of what might bee"offensive".

'Wis. Public Radio drops old-time radio shows over racist, sexist content'



On Sun, 25 Apr 2021, Wild West Designs wrote:

> There has been one university radio station that did remove some radio
> broadcasts from their lineup (just one mind you, but the precedent has
> now been set).  Was it in Michigan, Wisconsin?  I'm wanting to say it
> was one of those and I think it was Amos and Andy in particular, at
> least what was cited if I'm remembering correctly, I have slept since
> then.  I think that was mentioned in the FB group last year.  I think it
> was last summer.
>
> Ease of access in this instance, is very much the concern with
> preservation.  To me, and I could be wrong about this, preservation is
> linked to ease of access.  If it is only available to a select view,
> then preservation loses it's meaning.  It's still preservation, but it
> has become distorted.  Corrupted if you will as it specifically applies
> to OTR.  Part of preservation (at least for me, and this may differ from
> others and that's fine) is apart of sharing.  Culture that was written
> for everyone, should be preserved and enjoyed by everyone (and there are
> different ways for past content to be "enjoyed" as well).  Even if it's
> in the past and as a culture we have moved past those norms (at least so
> I thought).  Now, if it is a culture of a small group, then yes, ease of
> access may be different then.  While we are a small, niche group doing
> preservation, what we are trying to preserve is a part of a country's
> culture, not just one tiny group's culture.  I hope that makes sense, I
> may still be totally off my rocker, but hopefully there appears to be
> some method to my madness.
>
> Hosting being able to enforce, is more reactive as they are dependent
> (at least right now) for people to report when they see things (and
> depending on where the hosting company is located), but I'm sure they
> can come up with some ToS violation to get it removed for a "valid"
> reason.  While doing a hosting outside the US may be a valid option, we
> would still have to worry about connecting to that outside server from
> within the US.  Still possible, but not quite as easy.
>
> You have to remember ebay removed the sale of those 6 "problematic" Dr
> Seuss books when listings were reported.  It appears no 1st sale
> doctrine applies there if it's "problematic" (as they were used books).
> So while, owner's of the IP may be able to limit future pressings etc,
> it going after what the 1st sale doctrine is supposed to allow for is
> something else (by the way, for those that buy digital goods, 1st sale
> doctrine (at least from what I can tell as a non lawyer) doesn't tend to
> apply even with downloaded digital goods (even less so with non
> downloaded goods, we have less rights with those)).
>
> Now, I will say this, I'm wildly risk adverse about some things, so even
> a small chance is no bueno in my book.  So take that into account as
> well.
>
> Evan
>
> On 2021-04-25 08:48 AM, Ryan Ellett via groups.io wrote:
>
> > I know people have mentioned Evan's point in the past, but I don't
> > remember if it was here or on the Facebook page. On the extremely tiny
> > chance (in my opinion) that all internet service providers decided they
> > would not host old-time radio web content, I think most hobbyists would
> > go on sharing content privately as has been done since the '50s and is
> > still being done. While making it available on our website or Internet
> > Archive or YouTube certainly expands the potential audience, it's not
> > necessary for any preservation purposes. Or we could find some hosting
> > service outside the United States.
> >
> > Practically speaking I don't see old-time radio disappearing from the
> > internet. Even universities and the Library of Congress feature
> > historical broadcasts. It'd be impossible for any hosting service to
> > enforce, it seems. You might see pressure to remove some of the
> > minstrel-type shows or even Amos n Andy but those shows are well
> > preserved in private collections and will not be in danger of
> > disappearing. Preservation is not connected to ease of public access,
> > as witnessed by all the material in library archive holdings.
> >
> > I may be misunderstanding Evan's concern but OTRR has over the years
> > removed material from our public library at the request of rights
> > holders and to avoid attracting unwanted attention in other cases, but
> > the material is still readily available should anyone want to hear it.
> >
> >
> > The Old Time Radio Researchers
> > "Saving the Past for the Future"
> >
> >
> > I am no way advocating a total free for all political discussion, but I
> > would certainly argue that some aspects do affect our efforts for
> > preservation and I think that they would be good to discuss.  If
> > nothing else, in order to make plans as to where to focus on
> > preservation if something is to be changed with availability.
> >
> > Evan
> >
> >
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [5]
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Dan d.
XR